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<p>Hi Katherine and welcome to SPI,<br>
I understand your frustration of not being able to join. I was
there myself a few years ago, although the issue was silent, so it
took a while to detect it. There is still a ticket which should
help to ease detection of these situations:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.spi-inc.org/pipermail/spi-general/2016-September/003545.html">http://lists.spi-inc.org/pipermail/spi-general/2016-September/003545.html</a><br>
Thank you for being kind enough to report the issue. I am glad it
could be solved.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I'm sorry, my statement was unclear at best. What I meant to say
is that I do not consider it a problem if the number of male SPI
members is different from the number of female members. I consider
diversity and inclusiveness as 2 very different things. I do not
see it as a problem per se that diversity is lower than it could
be, but I would consider it a problem if inclusiveness is lower
than it can be. And I would see it as a problem if the average
power in SPI of a group X was different from the average power in
SPI of a group Y, if the only difference between their members was
gender.</p>
<p>So to go back to advisors, I don't see it as a problem per se if
2 associated projects have different numbers of advisors. What I
would consider problematic is if 2 equally important associated
projects, having each proposed an equal number of equally
competent and acceptable candidates, would end up with a different
number of SPI advisors.<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 2019-12-10 à 09:02, Katherine
Mcmillan a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAMsu0zG2j5Cg2WApUrL-+hPbSKRHxEQLcR81qOs_L0dXM9Tr8g@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">Hello all,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'm not sure I'm allowed to comment on this - I have not
been able to join SPI formally as the "Apply" link under
Membership on the website it broken.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I agree with rescinding the positions of SPI Board
Advisors. It's problematic to allow these (all male) people
to continue on in those positions, when people like myself who
are very interested can't even join SPI as a member. It's
offensive, and as Martin pointed out, doesn't reflect
reality. It's very misleading with regards to their role
in/with SPI. Why would they continue to have these titles if
they're not interested/not doing anything special? I would
infer that advisors for a project are consulted, and if they
were not, I would question the entire communications and
governance of the project (which I am now doing). I would
recommend SPI brings on productive/interested advisors if they
will continue recognizing these positions/titles, and to
actually consult the advisors. If the current advisors want
to play an active role in consultation, then they could keep
their title/role. I would like to put my name forward as the
Diversity and Inclusion Advisor, if advisors will remain.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>With regards to Filipus's comment, "Nor would I consider
gender imbalance as a problem per se": Gender imbalance is a
huge problem in SPI, please stop denying that this is a
massive, glaring problem, and looks terrible for SPI's current
optics in terms of inclusiveness and diversity. Again, as an
outsider (who also happens to be female) I can honestly say
that SPI looks, from the outside, to be a
cis-white-middle-aged-male-debian "Boys' club". Gender
imbalance is absolutely a problem per se, as is the lack of
other types of diversity.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Sincerely,</div>
<div>Katie McMillan</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 7:00
AM <<a href="mailto:spi-general-request@lists.spi-inc.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">spi-general-request@lists.spi-inc.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
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<br>
Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: Proposed resolution - rescind position of SPI board<br>
advisors (Martin Michlmayr)<br>
2. Re: Proposed resolution - rescind position of SPI board<br>
advisors (Luca Filipozzi)<br>
3. Re: Proposed resolution - rescind position of SPI board<br>
advisors (Bdale Garbee)<br>
4. Re: Proposed resolution - rescind position of SPI board<br>
advisors (Martin Michlmayr)<br>
5. Re: Proposed resolution - rescind position of SPI board<br>
advisors (Filipus Klutiero)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 22:36:06 +0200<br>
From: Martin Michlmayr <<a href="mailto:tbm@cyrius.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">tbm@cyrius.com</a>><br>
To: Tim Potter <<a href="mailto:tpot@frungy.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">tpot@frungy.org</a>><br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:spi-general@lists.spi-inc.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">spi-general@lists.spi-inc.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: Proposed resolution - rescind position of SPI
board<br>
advisors<br>
Message-ID: <<a
href="mailto:20191209203606.GA29219@jirafa.cyrius.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">20191209203606.GA29219@jirafa.cyrius.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii<br>
<br>
* Tim Potter <<a href="mailto:tpot@frungy.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">tpot@frungy.org</a>>
[2019-12-09 20:17]:<br>
> Hi everyone. One item discussed at a recent meeting of
the SPI board was<br>
> concerning the position of Board Advisors. Many years ago
Board Advisors<br>
> served a useful purpose but have not been used in a very
long time. It is<br>
> proposed in this resolution[1] to rescind the positions
of SPI Board Advisors.<br>
<br>
I think there should be some rationale in the resolution as to
why,<br>
i.e. that this is not a reduction in transparency but a
reflection<br>
that monthly SPI board meetings are open and that everyone is<br>
invited to participate (rather than limiting input to some
special<br>
advisors).<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Martin Michlmayr<br>
<a href="https://www.cyrius.com/" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.cyrius.com/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 22:49:48 +0000<br>
From: Luca Filipozzi <<a href="mailto:lfilipoz@spi-inc.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">lfilipoz@spi-inc.org</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:spi-general@lists.spi-inc.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">spi-general@lists.spi-inc.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: Proposed resolution - rescind position of SPI
board<br>
advisors<br>
Message-ID: <<a
href="mailto:20191209224948.menxx5kgkkwrt7hb@snafu.emyr.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">20191209224948.menxx5kgkkwrt7hb@snafu.emyr.net</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii<br>
<br>
On Mon, Dec 09, 2019 at 10:36:06PM +0200, Martin Michlmayr
wrote:<br>
> * Tim Potter <<a href="mailto:tpot@frungy.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">tpot@frungy.org</a>>
[2019-12-09 20:17]:<br>
> > Hi everyone. One item discussed at a recent meeting
of the SPI board was<br>
> > concerning the position of Board Advisors. Many
years ago Board Advisors<br>
> > served a useful purpose but have not been used in a
very long time. It is<br>
> > proposed in this resolution[1] to rescind the
positions of SPI Board Advisors.<br>
> <br>
> I think there should be some rationale in the resolution
as to why,<br>
> i.e. that this is not a reduction in transparency but a
reflection<br>
> that monthly SPI board meetings are open and that
everyone is<br>
> invited to participate (rather than limiting input to
some special<br>
> advisors).<br>
<br>
That plus:<br>
- (1) we don't actually reach out to the advisors for input
(as far as<br>
I've seen since I was elected a few years ago)<br>
- (2) if we want input from someone, we can just ask them
without<br>
appointing them as an advisor<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Luca Filipozzi<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 3<br>
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2019 15:59:07 -0700<br>
From: Bdale Garbee <<a href="mailto:bdale@gag.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">bdale@gag.com</a>><br>
To: Tim Potter <<a href="mailto:tpot@frungy.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">tpot@frungy.org</a>>,
<a href="mailto:spi-general@lists.spi-inc.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">spi-general@lists.spi-inc.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: Proposed resolution - rescind position of SPI
board<br>
advisors<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:87blshyukk.fsf@gag.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">87blshyukk.fsf@gag.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
Tim Potter <<a href="mailto:tpot@frungy.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">tpot@frungy.org</a>>
writes:<br>
<br>
> Hi everyone. One item discussed at a recent meeting of
the SPI board was<br>
> concerning the position of Board Advisors. Many years ago
Board Advisors<br>
> served a useful purpose but have not been used in a very
long time. It is<br>
> proposed in this resolution[1] to rescind the positions
of SPI Board<br>
> Advisors.<br>
<br>
It's not clear to me why you need to rescind the resolution
instead of<br>
just continuing to not actually appoint or seek advice from
existing<br>
appointees. What's the problem you're actually trying to
solve?<br>
<br>
Bdale<br>
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<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 4<br>
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2019 01:19:03 +0200<br>
From: Martin Michlmayr <<a href="mailto:tbm@cyrius.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">tbm@cyrius.com</a>><br>
To: Bdale Garbee <<a href="mailto:bdale@gag.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">bdale@gag.com</a>><br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:spi-general@lists.spi-inc.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">spi-general@lists.spi-inc.org</a>,
Tim Potter <<a href="mailto:tpot@frungy.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">tpot@frungy.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: Proposed resolution - rescind position of SPI
board<br>
advisors<br>
Message-ID: <<a
href="mailto:20191209231903.GB29219@jirafa.cyrius.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">20191209231903.GB29219@jirafa.cyrius.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii<br>
<br>
* Bdale Garbee <<a href="mailto:bdale@gag.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">bdale@gag.com</a>>
[2019-12-09 15:59]:<br>
> It's not clear to me why you need to rescind the
resolution instead of<br>
> just continuing to not actually appoint or seek advice
from existing<br>
> appointees. What's the problem you're actually trying to
solve?<br>
<br>
Make sure reality is reflected.<br>
<br>
The annual report lists the advisors, but they haven't been
consulted<br>
in years, so imho it makes sense to reflect that. It also
creates<br>
more balance between projects (why is the Debian project
leader always<br>
an advisor?)<br>
<br>
(For the record, I'm not on the board and can't speak for
SPI. But I<br>
brought this up when I was on the board and had the action
item to<br>
write a resolution, which unfortunately I never did.)<br>
-- <br>
Martin Michlmayr<br>
<a href="https://www.cyrius.com/" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.cyrius.com/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 5<br>
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 20:12:04 -0500<br>
From: Filipus Klutiero <<a href="mailto:chealer@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">chealer@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:spi-general@lists.spi-inc.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">spi-general@lists.spi-inc.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: Proposed resolution - rescind position of SPI
board<br>
advisors<br>
Message-ID: <<a
href="mailto:f2696ab9-4131-e1a3-ad1f-5851abf7ab16@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">f2696ab9-4131-e1a3-ad1f-5851abf7ab16@gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed<br>
<br>
Hi,<br>
<br>
Le 2019-12-09 ? 18:19, Martin Michlmayr a ?crit?:<br>
> * Bdale Garbee <<a href="mailto:bdale@gag.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">bdale@gag.com</a>>
[2019-12-09 15:59]:<br>
>> It's not clear to me why you need to rescind the
resolution instead of<br>
>> just continuing to not actually appoint or seek
advice from existing<br>
>> appointees. What's the problem you're actually
trying to solve?<br>
> Make sure reality is reflected.<br>
><br>
> The annual report lists the advisors, but they haven't
been consulted<br>
> in years, so imho it makes sense to reflect that.<br>
<br>
<br>
I find it quite natural in a mostly open project like this one
that <br>
advisors are not explicitly consulted. I would not infer from
a presence <br>
in such an SPI advisor list that a person is explicitly
consulted.<br>
<br>
<br>
> It also creates<br>
> more balance between projects (why is the Debian project
leader always<br>
> an advisor?)<br>
<br>
I do not see balance between projects (whatever that means) as
a goal. <br>
Nor would I consider gender imbalance as a problem per se. To
discuss <br>
genders, the problem I could see is a lack of feminine
presence. But I <br>
expelling productive males would be a costly solution to that,
if it can <br>
be one.<br>
<br>
I never heard about advisor creating any kind of imbalance
(though I <br>
must say I was also unaware of their existence).<br>
<br>
<br>
That being said, I have no strong opinion on this, though if
we don't <br>
publish a list of current advisors, as seems to be the case, I
would <br>
tend to support abolition.<br>
<br>
><br>
> [...]<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Filipus Klutiero<br>
<a href="http://www.philippecloutier.com" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.philippecloutier.com</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
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<br>
End of Spi-general Digest, Vol 159, Issue 2<br>
*******************************************<br>
</blockquote>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Philippe Cloutier
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.philippecloutier.com">http://www.philippecloutier.com</a></pre>
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